Curse

Arathorn5000 · Sep 07, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Sorry for the multitude of build posts, but I seem to be in a phase where I've learned what most of the skills do and have been following the strategy forums long enough to start formulating my own builds. So I'm enthralled by Theory Wars right now

The 4-man necro spiking under QZ idea from my last post seemed to not go over very well with readers here, so I'm back to the drawing board. This doesn't have anything to do with that last build, but it is a 4-slot offense. Can be combined with 4 defensive characters, 3 monks, and a shutdown mesmer, whatever. That's not my focus

This one is not necessarily going for originality (though I won't throw any smiters in), more for trying to get a good, stable, effective build. This should be able to be equally effective in tombs or GvG I think.

2 W/R:

16 axe mastery, 10 strength, 9 beast mastery
Gladiator's armor, zealous pvp axe of defense (15% while in a stance)

Eviscerate {E}
Executioner's Strike
Disrupting Chop
Bull's Strike
Tiger's Fury
"I Will Avenge You!"
Charm Animal
Res Sig

1 W/R:

16 axe mastery, 12 tactics, 6 strength, 4 wilderness suvival
Gladiator's armor, zealous pvp axe of defense (15% while HP>50%)

Executioner's Strike
Disrupting Chop
Distracting Blow
"Fear me!"
Serpent's Quickness
"Charge!" {E}
"I Will Avenge You!"
Res Sig

1 N/R:

10 curses, 16 soul reaping, 6 death magic, 8 wilderness survival
Tattoo armor w/ bloodstained boots, +15e -1 regen wand and focus

Lingering Curse {E}
Parasitic Bond
Necrotic Traversal
Mark of Pain
Rigor Mortis
Rend Enchantments
Frozen Soil
Res Sig

The basic idea is that you have 3 high-damage warriors, one utilizing a serpent's quickness / "charge!" combo to keep a 25% speed increase on all wars for 30 seconds out of every 48 seconds. This allows the other warriors to drop sprint and use tiger's fury full time. It's open to variation, but I didn't use frenzy because there is no stance to cancel into if you get attacked. Because he already has high tactics, the charge war also packs "fear me!" for some random energy denial. If the opponent begins to run, you'll be faster than them, and one of the two wars with bull's strike will use it to knock the target down, and maybe the wars can try to block them in by surrounding them while wailing away with tiger's fury.

The warriors will all focus on one target. The necro's main job is lingering that target. Parasitic bond is a quick cover hex, because it's just not efficient if the enemy is taking your lingering curse off too quickly. The necro also has necrotic traversal, simply for fast, cheap, corpse denial (in case your defense utilizes enchants and doesn't want well of profane screwing them up). Mark of pain will be used to extreme effect against heal balls. Rigor mortis is used on the target in the case of ward against melee, and rend enchantments is backup (or off-target) enchant removal. Frozen soil is for cases where your 4-man defense is doing their job and keeping everyone alive, while the enemy dies. As a bonus, with 16 soul reaping, every 30 seconds the necro can re-cast the frozen soil even if one is already down, 'killing' the first one and triggering soul reaping for a 6 energy net gain.

As a last-minute addition, I put "I will avenge you!" on the 3 wars and pets on two of them. This is simply very good damage over time if the enemy doesn't kill the pets, and a much larger bonus of 33% increased attack speed for the wars (20 seconds out of every 45 seconds) if the enemy does kill them, for a win-win scenario. The bonus body-blocking from the pets can't be ignored either, with 3 wars and 2 pets on the same target it's probably possible to completely surround them. "I will avenge you" can also be used if people on your team do start dying, to give you insane offensive power to swing the game back in your favor. It might not last too long, but with 25% increased run speed, and 66% increased attack speed on two wars (33% on the third), the target will go down fast.

Comments, suggestions for revision, etc.? (Hope this topic pique's the interest of some of the iQ guys where my last one failed, you guys rock and I'd love to hear your input)

Tigris Of Gaul · Sep 07, 2005, 02:33 AM // 02:33

You're better off having the warriors use Sprint.
And frenzy.
And getting a different secondary.
All using Eviscerate.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 07, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

So just say you don't like the build and I should stick with simply having 3 of the normally accepted "best" axe wars and don't try to make them more potent by using skills that work well together...

mamluk · Sep 07, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I really don't know how effective this would be, but it looks like it would be a lot of fun to try.

Charge may or may not be a good substitute for sprint, but the idea of replacing a common skill with a single skill used by character is an effecient idea and I like that. I think that sort of principle might work with other skills as well.

Evisicator · Sep 07, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Only problem is that charge is too iffy to rely on. I have and so have most of my friends, missed getting charge and we were standing right next to the guy using it. I think you might also find that you wont be able to put out dmg faster than 1 heal and 1 prot monk working against you.

Mitsu Bishi · Sep 07, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Is the increased attack speed from Tiger's Fury really stacking with the increased attack speed from IWAY? That was my first thought when I read the build. If not, I'd rather drop the pet idea alltogether.

Shinsei · Sep 07, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arathorn5000

but I seem to be in a phase where I've learned what most of the skills do and have been following the strategy forums long enough to start formulating my own builds.

Then you should know by now that TF warriors are horrible. Drop TF, and especially Rush. Sprint/Frenzy are on most occasions, musts on wars. Also, I tend to say that 3 warriors, especially for 4v4 is a crowd. And especially with pets out there. You'll be body blocking eachother like mad, thus losing your dps. Might want to drop the QZ war for a r/w with QS, or maybe even something like melandru's arrows/incendiary. Or you could go mainstream and give that slot to a smiter

And since you're basing your build around IWAU, pets and a necro, i won't even touch that, as much as I disagree with the entire basis of the build

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 07, 2005, 03:13 PM // 15:13

TF really is too inefficient on a warrior due to no expertise lowering the cost and that his other skills get shut down. Warrior NEEDS his energy. Using Charge {E} to replace sprint on the other warriors is fine I suppose, however, that Charger musn't die. He's the target caller I think. I think the problem with this build is that it's both inefficient and energy hungry and the warriors HAVE to stay together. This lowers efficiency since a hammer warrior on one caster and an interruptor on another off target is better than all warriors on one caster.

my $0.02...

Arathorn5000 · Sep 07, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Thanks for the input guys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evisicator

Only problem is that charge is too iffy to rely on. I have and so have most of my friends, missed getting charge and we were standing right next to the guy using it. I think you might also find that you wont be able to put out dmg faster than 1 heal and 1 prot monk working against you.

Ah, definitely something I did not consider. However, I ran "charge!" on my ranger flag-runner in GvG many times, and almost always landed the shout on all my teammates when we were decently grouped together. Does anyone know the real range of shouts? And of course, since that is one of the main jobs of this warrior, he will be aware of his distance (or hopefully lack thereof) from the other warriors when preparing to shout.

About the monks protecting and out-healing your damage, I'm not so sure. The necro's job is enchant removal, with the awesome lingering curse and the backup rend enchantments. He also has the secondary effect of cutting the opposition's healing on the target by half, which I think really swings the favor in my direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitsu Bishi

Is the increased attack speed from Tiger's Fury really stacking with the increased attack speed from IWAY? That was my first thought when I read the build. If not, I'd rather drop the pet idea alltogether.

Indeed this is definitely an issue. If I find out that the IAS properties to not stack, then the pet idea is history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Then you should know by now that TF warriors are horrible. Drop TF, and especially Rush. Sprint/Frenzy are on most occasions, musts on wars. Also, I tend to say that 3 warriors, especially for 4v4 is a crowd. And especially with pets out there. You'll be body blocking eachother like mad, thus losing your dps. Might want to drop the QZ war for a r/w with QS, or maybe even something like melandru's arrows/incendiary. Or you could go mainstream and give that slot to a smiter

And since you're basing your build around IWAU, pets and a necro, i won't even touch that, as much as I disagree with the entire basis of the build

First off I'm a bit confused by your response....the build uses neither QZ nor rush. Also, it is not intended for 4v4 play.

I wouldn't go to the extreme to say that TF warriors are horrible, though I do see the sprint/frenzy combo as the much better choice "on most occasions" as you say. However, I am trying to create a situation where the general guidelines don't exactly apply. With the frenzy/sprint combo, you can only have one active at a time, so if the enemy begins to run you must give up your increased attack speed for the ability to catch your opponent. I find that there is a lot of stance cancelling, and I can't always have the perfect stance due to recharge times. By utilizing the "charge!" shout, the goal is for all three warriors to have a 25% speed boost 75% of the time, so running enemies will not be a problem and you will always be stealing critical hits through their stupidity. Also, this allows two of the warriors to "double-up" on buffs by bringing an increased attack speed stance that can co-exist with their 25% increased run speed buff.

Tiger's fury is not essential to this build. You can easily replace it with frenzy if you desire (and plop all the beast mastery points into strength, though the difference is all of 3% armor penetration I believe). The reason I chose tiger's fury for the recommended skill is because I'm dropping the use of sprint. Without another stance to cancel into, you are at the mercy of your enemy target caller. If through incidental damage or even poor-target calling your opponent realizes you're taking double damage, you might get into more trouble than you ever needed to.

Body-blocking each other is also something I did not consider. That's definitely a valid concern. However, I think through good use of positioning, it will not be so hard to swivel around the target to find an opening. Especially with your increased run speed, I don't think it will take a large toll on your efficiency.

The quickshot ranger is a nice thought. He benefits from the necro curses just as well as the warriors, and has a very nice and stable high DPS. However, I really think the increased run speed on the warriors leads to extra flexibility in the 8v8 environment, and the ability to charge adrenaline skills and then quickly switch to a nearby target to spike them out is not ignorable.

Also, I am most certainly not basing the entire build on IWAU or a necromancer. As I stated, IWAU was thrown into the build as a last minute thought, and can be replaced with plenty of other alternatives if you don't see it as lots of extra long-term DPS as I do.

The necromancer is trivial in this build. What is not trivial, and what the build is based around, is lingering curse. It helps immensely with the given offense, promoting their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. I thought up different builds to utilize lingering curse, trying to think of energy management as well as extra jobs for this character to take care of. However, most of the top-tier energy management skills are elites, so those are ruled out. Also, I want one of this character's jobs to be corpse denial, though you can toss this if the other half of your build does not utilize enchantments. So with necrotic traversal on every corpse, and lingering the target (possibly quite often if the wars are needing to change targets frequently), there aren't too many jobs that this one person should be put in charge of.

So with the criteria, I decided to simply go with the necro primary for fairly good energy management with high soul reaping and to get access to the bloodstained boots and all of the minor runes. I gave him ranger secondary simply for frozen soil, because that's a nice addition to any offense and it actually can assist his energy management. That said, you can change his secondary to /ele for something like glyph of lesser energy, or /me to take advantage of the inspiration line. Or you could decide you want to give the necro another main job, and base him around that (and possibly switch to necro secondary). It doesn't matter, I thought the recommend build was simple and efficient though, with backup skills in the case of someone shutting down your lingering curse (rigor/rend).

And last but not least

:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

TF really is too inefficient on a warrior due to no expertise lowering the cost and that his other skills get shut down. Warrior NEEDS his energy. Using Charge {E} to replace sprint on the other warriors is fine I suppose, however, that Charger musn't die. He's the target caller I think. I think the problem with this build is that it's both inefficient and energy hungry and the warriors HAVE to stay together. This lowers efficiency since a hammer warrior on one caster and an interruptor on another off target is better than all warriors on one caster.

my $0.02...

Hmm, while I agree that tiger's fury is generally too expensive to warrant taking on a war, I kept that in mind while building these characters. What exactly seems to be your concern? The only energy skills that the first two wars will be using are tiger's fury every 10 seconds, and a situational bull's strike that's not even completely necessary (you'll be faster than your target anyway). IWAU is used much more rarely. I can't possibly imagine having any energy problems with this build, especially with tiger's fury up full time, always being faster than your opponent, and having a zealous weapon.....

The second warrior will be running the serpent's quickness + "charge!" combo, which costs 20 energy every 48 seconds (if used continuously; in reality, you might hold back from using it sometimes if it's completely not necessary). This is almost completely made back up through the 1 energy regen you have, and outstandingly accounted for through all the hits with the zealous axe. In fact, you have too much energy, which is why I included distracting blow to his skillset (you can put in something like power attack if you desire).

The "charge!" warrior in no way needs to be the target caller; in fact, I'd prefer one of the other wars with less to think about be the target caller. That doesn't mean the "charge!" war can just ignore everything and follow the target blindly while pushing his shout button, he can make educated decisions on the proper times to use his skills to enhance the whole offense.

About having to stay on one target: I'm not so sure about your thoughts about efficiency...the necromancer is using a 25 energy elite curse on the target that strips them of all enchantments and cuts all healing on them in half....I want to make full use of that by exploiting that target's condition to do massive damage on them while they can't outheal it. In my mind, that's efficiency. I'm sure that a KD hammer war on one target, an interrupter on another target, etc. etc. is a good strategy too. However, terms like "better", "worse", these are simply relative opinions. I don't think you effectively proved here that your version is superior, or perhaps you just weren't able to articulate your idea well enough.

Moskel · Sep 07, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

W/R TF Axe have 0 energy problems if you use a Zealous Axe and can actually hit your target, do the math for those that say it doesn't work or heck just go try it. TF is great for when your warriors are going to overextend from the healing and you don't want them to go 'soft' on you like a Frenzy warrior can, all it takes is one wand to spook a Frenzy warrior into cancelling it with sprint and then they (a) can't Frenzy again for 20 seconds or (b) run the risk that you do real damage to them the second time.

The build you posted can work just fine, the drawbacks being...

Convert Hexes - Not popular yet but as more people start running LC+PB or other covers it will be.

Anti-Warrior - take your pick, Ineptitude, Sympathetic Visage, (any Weakness hex), etc, etc [Rigor Mortis will take care of a good chunk of the anti-warrior but back to Convert Hexes again

]

If you're going to use IWAY you may want to consider that when your pets die in a GvG they will res back at your portal (or in HoH at your priest) which can be bad to go get so its basically a one time thing for most fights. Personally I prefer Axe Rake over Bull's Strike. I'd rather they not get to run away to begin with and you're going to need that energy for TF.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 07, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

The thing about axe rake is that I find when people are crippled, they just stop trying to run completely. Whereas if the war is running sprint (or any other increased movement speed), many victims still think they can get away, all the while you're getting crit hits on their back. I know, you could say my logic conflicts with the use of bull's strike in this build, but I really do like the idea of 3 wars wailing away at a knocked down victim. Plus, I think people still try to run away when they get back up, giving you access to free critical hits again, and you can even bull's strike them right back down if you so choose (remember, it's not necessary, so it's not a huge energy burden). TF pays for itself, so you're basically running a neutral or slightly positive energy regen over time, allowing for bull's strikes here and there.

Yes, convert would own lingering. But like you pointed out, it's really not very prevalent at all with the current metagame. If the mass hex mesmer teams start popping up like crazy (as some people predict), it could become a problem. I think if a lot of enemies are using it, the necro should put in weaken armor for mark of pain to cut his losses if the lingering and parasitic bond get converted. Alternatively, the wars could target the prot monk if he's doing too well with his hex removal

). As I've never run this build, I'm actually wondering if 3 wars could outdamage 2 healing monk with their HPS cut in half on a target. I think they would.

Rossaroni · Sep 07, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I'd say drop the N/R. It doesn't fit with the flavor of the build as it is. You could, however, make the N/R a blood spec and do some cool stuff. Dark Fury, for example, would really speed up the damage on the build to an almost insane point. Rigor Mortis and Mark of Pain ftw.

Instead of Bull's Strike, use Axe Rake. Easier to use, and with eviscerate you've got the deep wound covered. You're going to be doing tons of damage regardless of their current state. Run, sit still, whatever--you're dead.

There's no reason to have the "Charge!" warrior, because with axe rake, you've got speed taken care of. Besides, if the first target runs, then just switch. Mass confusion will work to your advantage with this offense.

Another tip: 4 pets + IWAY = nearly permanent IAS and regen, should be at least +6.

Oh, by the way. I've found that 2 warriors can usually outdamage a monk when IWAY and TF are going, and the adrenaline is flowing. So, the 3:2 match might go either way. This build really depends on adrenaline, with eviscerate and all, so 2 prot monks with aegis, guardian, and well-timed reversals might be able to outlast this build for a while, but typically spellcasters will falter due to the increased difficulty of defending against such a fast and high-damage offense.

Arathorn5000 · Sep 07, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

Instead of Bull's Strike, use Axe Rake. Easier to use, and with eviscerate you've got the deep wound covered. You're going to be doing tons of damage regardless of their current state. Run, sit still, whatever--you're dead.

There's no reason to have the "Charge!" warrior, because with axe rake, you've got speed taken care of. Besides, if the first target runs, then just switch. Mass confusion will work to your advantage with this offense.

I like "charge!" and tiger's fury combo because the opponent's hex/condition removal can't do anything against it, whereas they can remove cripple. Axe Rake is also an adrenaline hog (comparatively). I also just posted (above your post) another reason I prefer speed boost to crippling the target, and this build is trying to exemplify the 'better' options IMO. Yes of course there are all different kinds of builds that work perfectly fine.

I'm considering everyone's insight, but I really haven't read anything to completely convince me that the "charge!" idea is not good. I have two wars who don't need any speed boost/snare and can focus on extra damage dealing. "Charge!" also makes sure I'll always win a race to an altar or flag stand, helps in relic runs, and can even help my monks run from enemy wars effectively if our team jells with each other and understands the importance of battle positioning.

Quote:

I'd say drop the N/R. It doesn't fit with the flavor of the build as it is. You could, however, make the N/R a blood spec and do some cool stuff. Dark Fury, for example, would really speed up the damage on the build to an almost insane point. Rigor Mortis and Mark of Pain ftw.

Why doesn't it fit with the flavor? Lingering curse is huge with this build. I'm not interested in orders or dark fury, 5 second buffs with large HP sacrifices that aren't even that cheap are hard for me to wrap my head around...the enchant removal from lingering is key in this build, as well as the decrease to the healing that target can receive. Though I agree, the ranger secondary is largely unnecessary, I pointed out that I couldn't think of anything better to remain as efficient without giving this character too many jobs to juggle or too much of an energy burden.

Quote:

Another tip: 4 pets + IWAY = nearly permanent IAS and regen, should be at least +6.

Yep, that would be nice. But I really don't want my charge war or my necro's skills blacked out for 8 seconds for having a pet die, so I didn't put one on them. Perhaps you can utilize more pet bodies with the other 4 group members, it's up to you how to run the rest of the build. Also, the IWAY is not exactly the point of the build, it's just a nice add-on. I'll need to play in one of the full IWAY pet warrior builds to get a better grasp on it, maybe I will enhance it like you mention.

Quote:

Oh, by the way. I've found that 2 warriors can usually outdamage a monk when IWAY and TF are going, and the adrenaline is flowing. So, the 3:2 match might go either way. This build really depends on adrenaline, with eviscerate and all, so 2 prot monks with aegis, guardian, and well-timed reversals might be able to outlast this build for a while, but typically spellcasters will falter due to the increased difficulty of defending against such a fast and high-damage offense.

Yes, this is the vision of this build; a fast and furious offense designed on taking down a single target fairly quickly, but also versatile and extremely sturdy. All with only 4 slots, allowing more freedom for the rest of the build. At least this is how I envision it

, by some of the replies so far you'd think it's terrible

BTW,who uses two prot monks?

Ensign · Sep 07, 2005, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Just a couple things:

1) Tiger's Fury on a Warrior has been done to death - read the old tired arguments in the numberous threads on the subject if you actually care.

2) If you're not going to use Eviscerate on your Axe Warrior, switch to a sword for Galrath / Final Thrust and slip in your other Warrior elite there. It's not as good of a spike as Evisc/Exec, but it's better than running an Axe without it.

3) I Will Avenge You! is only good if you have a *lot* of pets in the build to use it off of. Bringing 1-2 pets and hoping that the skill does anything is just that, hope. You need to dedicate yourself and bring at *least* five pets if you want to run IWAY. Otherwise, don't bother.

4) *Every* Warrior needs a speed buff. People run. You need to be able to catch them and deal damage. Sprint is nice because it isn't conditional, Rush is a solid combat speed buff but has no utility outside of combat, and Charge is decent in those rare builds where you need a full team buff. Pick one.

5) Frozen Soil is awful. I can't stress this enough. First off it's slower than ressig so you're going to miss stopping the res against good teams. Then you just have a Frozen Soil sitting the battlefield, and that ends up backfiring way too often to be acceptable. Sure, it doesn't backfire half the time if you use it well, maybe 1/3 of the time if you really maximize it. But the penalty for a backfiring Frozen is *much* harsher than what it inflicts on the other team. If the other team is getting hurt by Frozen, they can send a Warrior to chop it down in 2-3 seconds. Maybe 5-7 if you position it well. But if your team is getting hurt by Frozen, there's *nothing* you can do. It's your spirit, it's just going to sit there and hose you until it expires naturally. The punishment is way too asymmetrical for me to ever touch that skill.

Peace,
-CxE

Arathorn5000 · Sep 07, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote: